Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-23-2010, 06:43 PM   #1
Moderator

 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,926
Default Anchor Dragged...

I tried to type this up in detail, but it seemed way to long, so I'll try the short version.

I anchored at a popular anchorage in the area. I was in somewhere between 5-8 ft. of water. I have a Fortress FX-11 (Danforth) with 20 ft. of chain and had another 60ft. of anchor line out in addition to the chain. This seemed like more than enough scope. When I set the anchor, I always back down slowly while we're paying out line to avoid a ball of chain and line sitting on the anchor. I always 'power set' the anchor by knocking the engine into reverse and holding it until I can see the bow dip and hold for a bout 5 seconds. I sat. there from Noon on Tuesday to around 6:30 on Thursday. We spun A LOT over those 3 days. I checked the anchor on Thursday morning and all seemed fine. The anchor was not fouled and I could barely find it because it was buried so deeply. The only part of the anchor I could see was the square piece of metal in the center at the bottom of the flukes. I went into town for dinner on Thursday evening. When I came back the boat was gone.

It seems the chain fouled the anchor and while I was gone, the fouled anchor dragged me into the boat behind us. The boat behind us fendered their boat and caught us. They tied our boat to theirs and called a tow service who relocated our boat to an emergency mooring by the coast guard station.

Of course, the tow boat company is calling this a 'Salvage Operation' to the tune of $175.00/ft (28 ft x $175 = $4,900). I'm not exactly contesting the fee although I do think it's a bit on the high side for what was done, however it was an unmanned boat dragging through a mooring field. (That is not the purpose of this post).

I'm wondering what I did incorrectly, or would I could have done to prevent this from occurring in the future?

I know the easy answer's are:

1) Don't leave the boat while anchored.
2) Use a mooring instead.
3) Get a transient slip at a marina.

I'm curious what I did incorrectly in regards to anchoring, and what thoughts are on how to avoid this in the future. It would be nice to be able to sleep at night while I'm on the anchor intead of being plagued with anxiety about fouling and dragging again.
__________________

shrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2010, 11:18 PM   #2
Commander
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 291
Default

I am sure that there will be a lot of input on this question, or at least I hope so. That really sucks, especially since it seemed as though you were holding your anchorage very well for some time. Maybe another boat tried anchoring nearby and drug through your rode?? That is my worst fear.
__________________

rgreenwell8962 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2010, 09:36 AM   #3
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 54
Unhappy Wow I'm always worried!!

I agree that it sucks Shrew. I was anchored off Duck Island across from Westbrook and was fine for about 5 hours, just spinning in the wind in about 8 feet of water. While sitting near the back of the boat I noticed we were getting closer to another boat behind me. Or he was getting closer to me! I checked the anchor and it was dragging free. I pulled forward and reset it but cannot figure out why it suddenly let go.
Smithbrother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2010, 01:07 PM   #4
Admiral

 
ss3964spd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Fairfax Va
Posts: 1,512
Send a message via Yahoo to ss3964spd
Default

Arriving back from dinner only to find your boat is gone is definately a buzz kill.

I'm no achoring master but it certainly appears you had sufficient scope and the FX 11 should be enough hook for your 28' (it wasn't bent when you hauled it up was it?). Very odd, I think, that it came loose after being solidly set for 3 days. Sandy/muddy bottom?

Can only imagine one of two things; either the boat spun 90*, probably much more, and and simply pulled the anchor out - probably aided by another boats' wake or someone passed to close to the bow, didn't eyeball the angle of your rode, and hooked it.

I have never used two anchors but have read about the Bahamian Mooring method in several books. First link is from Fortress' site (see #4) and the second is from some sail boat site.
http://www.fortressanchors.com/safe_anchoring.html
http://www.tropicalboating.com/boat-...anchoring.html

Where the folks that caught your boat still there?

Dan
ss3964spd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2010, 03:10 PM   #5
Lt. Commander
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 139
Default

Shrew, sorry to hear about your plight. Seeing that you're in CT and probably on the LI Sound, your boat might have swung when the tide direction changed and just took it wrong after three days, budging your anchor loose.

Secondly, on my 24' Maxum last year I had a Danforth 8lb fluke anchor and our first time out it dragged in the middle of a tight congregation of boats in Zachs Bay at the 4th of July fireworks show; not fun.

Although the Danforth 8lb says it will hold up to something like a 30 ft boat (along with 10 ft of chain), I took no chances and immediately replaced with a Super Hooker Danforth 16 lb. It never ever budged during all conditions.

I Googled the FX-11 and read that it only weighs 7 lbs. although rated for boats up to 30 ft. If that's correct, I'd say that you ought to AT LEAST double the weight of your anchor, to a 16 Lb'r or more.

When I got my current Carver in July, 34' 15,000 lb displacement, it came with a 16 lb plow anchor. I didn't event test it out. I immediately went and bought a 25 Lb Danforth fluke (rated for up to 40' boats in higher winds). It's held strongly many times so far in low and high winds.
__________________
Prior boat: 1999 Maxum 2400SCR (I loved that boat but the wife made me get bigger). Current: '96 Carver 325 aft cabin.
Tommyfmu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2010, 03:58 PM   #6
Lt. Commander
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 228
Default

Wow that is really scary situation, so sorry it happened to you. I'm an inland lake guy and we just don't have the opportunity to leave our boat anchored other than to go down a line and see other people. I can sleep anchored but don't think I could leave her because even in our local waters I see some large anchors move on us for no apparent reason. Like they said above just the right wake or the right spin would cause it to lose it's grip.

Best of luck but hey check your insurance policy for an emergency towing provision. Many of our policies include some free towing or atleast an offset of what happened to you.
tackleshep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2010, 04:02 PM   #7
Lt. JG
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 36
Default

Hi Shrew,

I boat on the Ct. River a few weeks ago we were in Hamburg cove trying to anchor, my wife on the bow dropping the anchor me at the wheel. I tell to let it go and slowly start backing up to set like you did in a mooring cove, we were in about 5-6 feet of water I let out about 30 feet of rode. The hook kept dragging and would not set, so she pulls it up I try 2-3 more times, now everyone else is watching us and having a good time. Finally a nice woman on another boat tells me you can try that all day but it won't set here just use ant empty mooring. Turns out that part of the river is real silty and unless you have mushroom anchor nothing else will hold there maybe you had hooked a stump or something and when the boat swung it came free. Just guessing.

Mitch
kenpo262 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2010, 07:19 PM   #8
Admiral

 
seapuppy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Everett Wa
Posts: 4,681
Default

dang shrew...that's scary for sure...however...It depends on what kind of bottom your in...silty bottom would probably require a plow type anchor...I know they say that if you have a 25 ft boat...a 7-8lbs anchor should hold you...well..my thinking is yeah..in calm waters and no wind or tide.....
my thinking is you should probably have about a 15lbs plow type danforth type anchor....and 1 ft of chain for every ft of boat length ..then the scope should be between 5-7 times the depth...so...you probably needed 50 ft of scope out at least...
now if the winds and tides change very slowly...I can see the anchor chain twisting around...so...with a plow type of anchor...it should reset......

hope you got your boat back ..did your insurance pay for the salvage fees???

SP
__________________
Don't compare your life to others. You have no idea what their journey is all about.
------------------------
SSN683 Association member
Par Excellence
------------------------------
2008 Bayliner 340 - "Wild Whim"
--------------------------------------
I live in my own little world....but it's okay-they know me here!!!

Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
Tap-Rack-Bang

Anyone that sez "Size doesn't matter" has never owned a boat!
seapuppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2010, 01:47 PM   #9
Moderator

 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgreenwell8962 View Post
Maybe another boat tried anchoring nearby and drug through your rode??


There were no other newly arrived boats around, with the exception of the one which moved into my newly vacated space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ss3964spd View Post
Sandy/muddy bottom?
It looked pretty sandy, though I’m told there is a high silt content there and dragging is fairly common. I’ve anchored there before with no issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ss3964spd View Post

Can only imagine one of two things; either the boat spun 90*, probably much more, and and simply pulled the anchor out - probably aided by another boats' wake or someone passed to close to the bow, didn't eyeball the angle of your rode, and hooked it.

I have never used two anchors but have read about the Bahamian Mooring method in several books. First link is from Fortress' site (see #4) and the second is from some sail boat site.
http://www.fortressanchors.com/safe_anchoring.html
http://www.tropicalboating.com/boat-...anchoring.html

Where the folks that caught your boat still there?

Dan
We spun about 36,000 degrees over 3 days. It was actually odd because typically you wag in one direction for 5-6 hours, then wag in the other direction for 5-6 hours based on tides, unless the winds prevail and hold you. There was very, very little wind all week and we seemed to be spinning on all points of the compass every few minutes. We actually commented on how odd it was that within an hour, we’d have seen all 360 degrees a couple of times. However, the anchor held for days.

I agree that the weight of the Fortress seems light, however the anchor itself is very large and the holding is rated as one of the best for its range when compared to a comparable steel anchor. In other words the independent tests I’ve read claim that a 7lb Fortress FX-11 is comparable to a 10-13 lb steel anchor and the fortress still held better. (according to the tests).

The issue wasn’t that it could hold. It was really that the chain fouled the anchor, so rather than the working load (force of pull) being applied to the shank, it was being applied to the rod at the bottom of the flukes. This essentially caused the anchor to get pulled up rather than to dig in more.
The Bahama Moor is a great idea and something I’ve looked at before. The challenge is:


1) The 2 anchor lines can get tangled.

2) If you’re the only guy doing it in the anchorage, then you’re going to screw everyone else up. It’s would be similar to tossing out a second anchor off the stern in the middle of a mooring field. The people around you expect we’re all going to be pointing in the same relative direction. When you spin and do a 180, then you’re technically in the spot of the guy who was previously in front of you, and the guy that was behind is in the spot you used to be in. If everyone swings and I don’t, there will be problems.

I got a call from my insurance company who tells me; “Since there was no actual property damage, we can’t honor the claim”. I have my towing through Boat US, who says that had they been called, they probably would have waved the salvage and called it a tow based on the circumstances, however they weren’t called and there is nothing they can do to help. They do have arbitration services, but that is for when they are involved. I didn’t really expect them to do much, but I was curious about what the industry standard is for this type of situation.

So it looks like I’m saddled with a $4,900 invoice. This will add nicely to the $15,000 for the new 496 I installed last year. I think this has finally broken my spirit and the wife and I are seriously talking about selling the boat, licking our wounds and walking away from boating altogether.
shrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2010, 04:10 PM   #10
Lt. Commander
 
tjwieseler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Polk City, Iowa, United States
Posts: 117
Default

Shrew,

I have read several articles on when a tow becomes a salvage and have seen comments from people that offered CASH let's say $1000, and they took that as full payment. Just a thought.
tjwieseler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2010, 05:25 PM   #11
Moderator

 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjwieseler View Post
Shrew,

I have read several articles on when a tow becomes a salvage and have seen comments from people that offered CASH let's say $1000, and they took that as full payment. Just a thought.
I've considered that as well, at this point my next action to last resort is:

1) Ask the towing company to change the verbiage of the claim from "Salvage" to "TOW", then drop the fee to the max. my insurance will pay for a tow, which I beleive is around $2,500. I believe the insurance company will honor the resubmitted claim. In my opinion that cost is a bit more reasonable, but only about as reasonable as the prospect of choosing to loose an arm vs. a leg.

2) Tell the tow company, "Insurance isn't covering it and I'll pay 'X' out of pocket unless they want it to go to arbitration or litigation". I doubt they want litigation as they would break even at best. This is basically a self-arbitration. Unsure whether they want to self-arbitrate.


Other than that, I'm out of options. I'm not saying I don't want to take responsibility for my actions or avoid financial liability. All I'm saying is $4,900 is a lot of cash out of pocket and a bit unreasonable for the specific services rendered. I'm not begrudging them the right to make a living. It's the cost they incurred vs. the profit they are making that seems like extortion to me and is very, very frustrating.
shrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2010, 07:19 PM   #12
Admiral

 
ss3964spd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Fairfax Va
Posts: 1,512
Send a message via Yahoo to ss3964spd
Default

I think I'd press the tow company as well since I believe they are stretching "salvage" just a bit. At the time they towed it the boat was not in danger, or process, of sinking. They may be trying to get by on the fact that the captain had "abandoned" the ship but if hat's th case they would have full rights to the boat. I think.

Dan
ss3964spd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2010, 07:24 PM   #13
Commander
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 291
Default

Did some digging, maybe this will help.
There are two types of salvage: contract salvage and pure salvage, which is sometimes referred to as "merit salvage". In contract salvage the owner of the property and salvor enter into a salvage contract prior to the commencement of salvage operations and the amount that the salvor is paid is determined by the contract. The most common salvage contract is called a "Lloyds Open Form Salvage Contract".

In pure salvage, there is no contract between the owner of the goods and the salvor. The relationship is one which is implied by law. The salvor of property under pure salvage must bring his claim for salvage in federal court, which will award salvage based upon the "merit" of the service and the value of the salvaged property.

Pure salvage claims are divided into "high-order" and "low-order" salvage. In high-order salvage, the salvor exposes himself and his crew to the risk of injury and loss or damage to his equipment in order to salvage the damaged ship. Examples of high-order salvage are boarding a sinking ship in heavy weather, boarding a ship which is on fire, raising a ship or boat which has already sunk, or towing a ship which is in the surf away from the shore. Low-order salvage occurs where the salvor is exposed to little or no personal risk. Examples of low-order salvage include towing another vessel in calm seas, supplying a vessel with fuel, or pulling a vessel off a sand bar. Salvors performing high order salvage receive substantially greater salvage award than those performing low order salvage.

In both high-order and low-order salvage the amount of the salvage award is based first upon the value of the property saved. If nothing is saved, or if additional damage is done, there will be no award. The other factors to be considered are the skills of the salvor, the peril to which the salvaged property was exposed, the value of the property which was risked in effecting the salvage, the amount of time and money expended in the salvage operation etc.
rgreenwell8962 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2010, 09:00 PM   #14
Moderator

 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,926
Default

Yep, this tells me that the salvor is within their right to claim the percentage of the value of the property saved. I also did some digging and found this as well:

http://www.boatus.com/towing/salvage.asp

Even Boat US quotes up to $200/ft for non members for a salvage. I'm seeing less and less recourse on my end. What is legal doesn't completely appear to be in line with what is 'fair and reasonable', but I guess nobody said life was fair. I guess I wouldn't be complaining if the boat had been sinking.
shrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2010, 05:06 PM   #15
Moderator

 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,926
Default

OK, here's my last thought on this issue. I won't rehash the events, but it would seem to me that since the boat that was behind me caught my boat, fendered the boat and tied the boat off to their boat THEN called a towing company. Who is really the salvor here? Is it the tow company, or the recreational boat that actually secured my boat? Technically when the tow boat came on the scene my boat was already completely secured. It was not drifting, a hazzard to boats or navigation, beached or sunk. It was tied to an anchored boat. It would seem that the actual salvor in this case is the recreational boater, while they simply had my boat towed. The actual salvor in this case is not claiming salvage rights, however the tow company is.

Would it seem that under those circumstances the tow company has the right to claim salvage for a boat that they did not themselves secure? They only moved a secured boat at the request of the salvor. Again, I'm not looking to whine and avoid acceptance of responsibility. I'm just looking for anyone else's opinions on this matter and how I should procede.

Feel free to flame away if you think I'm being out of line or unreasonable.
shrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2010, 05:58 PM   #16
Admiral

 
seapuppy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Everett Wa
Posts: 4,681
Default

personally since the boat was secured and not a danger to navigation or sinking...secured and recovered by another boater...I'd say the salvage company doesn't have a leg to stand on..they can just claim towing charges...

don't worry bout flaming...if it got out of hand I'd have to put some cold water on it..

but you may have a point to bring up to the insurance company..they have lawyers to settle things like this...

SP
__________________
Don't compare your life to others. You have no idea what their journey is all about.
------------------------
SSN683 Association member
Par Excellence
------------------------------
2008 Bayliner 340 - "Wild Whim"
--------------------------------------
I live in my own little world....but it's okay-they know me here!!!

Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
Tap-Rack-Bang

Anyone that sez "Size doesn't matter" has never owned a boat!
seapuppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2010, 07:04 PM   #17
Lt. Commander
 
Nimh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Puget Sound, WA
Posts: 180
Default

Agreed - This almost sounds like some kind of scam from the towing company, especially calling it salvage. Actually I think you've been pretty calm and cool considering situation. This IS extortion. Your boat was secured, not taking on water, nor aground. What keeps a company like this from towing away any uninhabited vessel they can find on the hook? Being completely flippant, what keeps a person from calling these guys when the loud neighboring harbor mates leave for a hike one afternoon?

$175/foot is highway robbery for the job they've done.

I think I would find out how much Vessel Assist would have done this particular job for... I know they start the clock from the time they leave the dock, so it's never cheap, but it has to be considerably less than this. Once you have a dollar amount, offer the "salvage" company just over half of it and start negotiating. If things break down, and you don't have one already, find a lawyer that specializes in this type of thing. Screw these guys.

One question - I know you said you don't want to rehash the events, but..
Do you have a swivel between your anchor and rode? I can imagine with all that 360 degree swinging, per hour, over days - possibly your chain/rope became twisted up and once the anchor came loose it wasn't able to reset. I don't have a swivel either, but I may install one just for another piece of mind. I hope I didn't miss that detail already in other posts.
__________________
Jim and Angie
2005 Maxum 2400 SE
5.0L MPI with Bravo 3

Nimh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2010, 07:23 AM   #18
Captain
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Almere, Netherlands
Posts: 710
Default

hai shrew.....

what the company does is really fraud.....tell your assurance company what you think of it and how you see it like you discribed it here.......one tip......if you ever leave your boat again........put a sticker on the dash that everybody can see with your phone nr where people can reach you if something wrong....(but better, stay on the boat while anchored..)

succes with it, ed
ed & inge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2010, 01:23 PM   #19
Moderator

 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,926
Default

There's no swivel on the ground tackle. I simply didn't bury the anchor enough and since it's a Danforth, the chain caught the horizontal bars when it came around. Of course I'm kicking myself, then turning and asking my wife to kick me too. Hind sight is always 20/20.

1) I checked the anchor on Thursday morning and noticed that the chain was making a wide loop all the way around the anchor, but it was a big wide loop with a diameter of 6-8 ft. I contemplated swimming out and straightening out the chain. However we had spun in circles so many times and hadn't fouled yet, there didn't seem to be much point. I figured that once I straightened the chain, it would simply spin at some point. since I have been spinning with no foul for several days, this seemed pointless to me.

Opportunity #1: I should could/should have straightened out the chain.
Opportunity #2: I could see a tiny bit of the anchor exposed. It was the small square piece that sits between the two flukes. I could/should have gone back to
boat and fired up the engine and powerset it harder.

Opportunity #3: The wind had kicked up slightly later that afternoon. However at the time we left the boat the boat had been sitting pulling on the anchor in the direction it was initially set. I had thought "Well, the wind is kicking up a bit, but it's not really a big deal, at least we're pulling in the direction that will set the anchor harder. (See opportunity #1), I could/should have stayed on the boat to see how she held, but when I say the wind kicked up, we're talking from nothing to 10kts. We've sat on anchor opposing the direction the anchor was sat in 20-30kts winds in the past without issue.

I received the report from the captain. According to the tow captain, he was sitting in the anchorage and looked up and noticed (from 400 yards away) that my boat was dragging. He hailed the boat behind me (hailed, not from 400 yards away with the wind against you. He must mean by VHF. Uhh, does anyone keep there VHF on, set to 16 after sitting in an anchorage for 3 days?? I seriously doubt that, but OK) to notify them that the boat was sinking. (The people 200 ft. behind didn't notice that I was dragging, but the guy 400 yards away did? Uh, OK). He then jumnped in his boat, went over adn advised that they secure the boat for him to make it easier for him to come along side. He then relocated the boat.

He specifically worded his post-mortem report to show that he retained salvage rights. This was not the story he gave me when I spoke with him that night. So now I have little recourse to negate his salvage claim.

Opportunity #4: I could/should have gone back to the boat that caught me to get their name, contat info. and statement. However this would have been a double-edged sword. In doing so, I risk absolving the towing company of their salvage rights, but essentially grant salvage rights to the boater who caught me in the process. If they were so inclined, they could submit a salvage claim instead.

So, my insurance company is telling me they aren't going to honor the claim because there was no damage involved. They also claim they wouldn't even honor a tow without damage and I'm on my own. (As soon as this is cleared up, we're getting a new insurance company). I've read SALCON89, which is a very interesting read. I'm trying to get the towing company to force the issue under SALCON89 with my insurance. I'd prefer that the insurance company go into artbitration. Otherwise I will have to go into arbitration with the towing company myself. With this fabricated captains report, it's going to be very difficult.
__________________

shrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.